Nothing motivates careful thinking about retirement income strategies than actually being on the cusp of one's own retirement. This is the case for Grinder12, who recently told his story at the Bogleheads Forum in such a compelling way that I've asked him if he was willing to provide an updated version as a guest blog post here. There are two schools of thought about retirement income: probability-based and safety-first. For those considering the safety-first school of thought, the major question is about whether it is worth losing much of the potential upside for greater downside protection. In today's guest post, Grinder12 considers arguments against safety-first (which in this case means building a 25-year TIPS ladder) as well as his responses to those arguments. He's articulated all of these issues very well.
Advisor Cautious About TIPS Ladder Strategy
by Grinder12
I've recently I felt emboldened to go forward with a plan I've been thinking about for a while, which is investing a lot of our money in a TIPS ladder. But our investment advisor is questioning our plan (they're fee-based and are focused on helping us) and has sent me an email itemizing their concerns about a TIPS ladder strategy. I have drafted a response to the advisor's cautions (which are partially paraphrased), below. My responses are based on the digging, reading, thinking and crunching I’ve been doing since receiving their email, but I am not as sure of myself as it might appear in those responses, and am wavering in the face of their arguments. I guess I'm really just looking for someone knowledgeable to bolster my confidence in this approach or identify holes in my thinking. Any feedback is welcome. Thanks.
Strategy
Construct a TIPs ladder using the bulk of our traditional IRAs (78% of our total financial portfolio) to fund our projected living expenses over the next 25 years (We're retirees, age 60 and 70). Then we would use the monies in our Roth (about 15% of our portfolio due to conversions a few years ago) to invest in an aggressive equity growth fund (DFA Global Equity “Fund of Funds”). Our strategy is to feel safe for the next 20-25 years with our TIPs ladder, then beyond that rely on wife's pension, husband's social security and wife's annuity income (most but not all inflation indexed), plus whatever the Roth has grown to in 25 years. The assumed real rates of return are 0.8% for the TIPS ladder and 4% for the Roth equity. I've assembled a detailed bond purchase plan that matches our TIPS income with our projected liabilities including basic expenses, travel, auto purchases, major house expenses and annuity purchases, with a little extra built in. We have tracked our expenses for 20 years so we have a good idea of what those expenses are.
Advisor Caution #1
The fact that we are giving up the possibility of the considerable additional gain that equities have historically provided over a fairly long period like we are using.
My Response:
Yes, there's no question that the expected final portfolio value of this plan is MUCH lower than the expected value of a plan with significantly more equity/less TIPS at the start. But we have no children to leave an estate to and our entire investment focus is on defending our current standard of living into the future against worst case scenarios, not average conditions. I'm sure you'll agree that this is a very different goal than optimizing a portfolio to maximize wealth, based on those long term average conditions. It is also very costly, in terms of foregone expected equity gains. We are just fortunate to be in a position to be able to afford that cost. When I run probabilistic scenarios, I'm not even comfortable with a 95% portfolio survival probability. If I can afford to increase that survival probability further, I will.
Advisor Caution #2:
Being 20-30% in equity should generally keep us even with or slightly ahead of inflation. We are using TIPs for this but are giving up any net difference equities provide above this. The advisor acknowledges we are giving up the possibility of declines as well.
My Response:
Giving up the expected net gains of equities is a price we're willing to pay. Avoiding declines at this stage of our life is what our primary goal is.
Advisor Caution #3:
Being so heavily weighted in TIPS, we risk deflationary adjustments in the TIPS principal.
My Response:
Yes, the TIPS adjusted principal goes down with deflation. But if the adjusted principal falls below the original principal, you get the higher of the two at maturity, and we're always holding to maturity, so there is a deflation floor. And of course, living expenses are presumably tracking downward with deflation. But they've alerted me to the fact that our April 2028 and April 2029 maturities have a much bigger gap between the adjusted principal and the original principal so they have the most deflation risk. We could replace those with the January maturities of the same years to reduce that risk. In the big picture, I'm thinking it's probably not worth it. But something to think about for the future.
Advisor Caution #4:
We are extremely heavily weighted in US Government bonds, and in US currency. Yes it is the leading currency currently but it is being rapidly debased and over 25 years other currencies may take on a leading role in a global economy.
My Response:
If this is referring to potential dollar devaluation and hyper-inflation, am I wrong to think that TIPS being held to maturity would be among the safer places to be in that situation?
Advisor Caution #5:
In general, having this much of our investable assets in one type of instrument, ie TIPs can lead to unforeseeable problems. They are proponents of diversification to spread the risk of any given asset/asset class being in a major downward trend for extended periods.
My Response:
That 78/15% TIPS/equity allocation number in 2014 probably doesn't accurately reflect the allocation story here. For example, the TIPS balances will be falling every year, while the equity balances will hopefully be climbing, so that TIPS/equity balance is projected to change a lot over time. Since our income needs are protected, we don't assume any need to rebalance for a long time...the plan allows us to avoid equity withdrawals and basically forget about the Roth equity for 20+ years. If you present value all our income inflows over the plan period, our true asset allocation in 2014 looks like this: Wife's pension 27%, Husband's Social Security 18%, Wife's annuities 4%, Property 6%, TIPS 26%, Equity 16%, Gold 1%, Cash 1%. If you just consider the PV of the financial asset income it's 58% TIPS, 36% Equity, 3% Gold and 3% Cash. So I think the plan is really more diversified and "into" equities than it might look when using simply a first year allocation snapshot.
Advisor Caution #6:
If we’re not careful we could be paying taxes on inflation adjusted principal on TIPs annually even though our principal isn't received until maturity.
My Response:
Yes, we need to make sure that we keep the TIPS in the IRA account where this is not a problem. The TIPS "shadow income" problem only applies to TIPS being held in taxable accounts.
Advisor Caution #7:
For most of their clients, during times of rising interest rates, being in intermediate and long bonds can be very unpleasant.
My Response:
I have to keep coming back to the point that we’re holding the bonds to maturity, so we aren’t concerned with how their market value bounces around. That's a key feature of this approach. Now if we had an unfunded catastrophic expense, there'd be more risk of being caught on the wrong side of interest rates. But we are heavily insured for liability, LTC and medical costs. If one of us dies, we'd each lose some income stream but expenses are projected to fall in a matching manner so the survivor is kept whole. I'm hard pressed to think of a scenario that could force us to liquidate at a disadvantage, not that it couldn’t happen. But even if our income/liability mis-matching starts accumulating a difference, it would only be worth a year or two of accelerated redemptions or ladder rebalancing which would have a low interest rate risk. And of course TIPS are less inflation sensitive than nominal bonds.
Advisor Caution #8:
They feel the biggest issue may be how inflation is measured by the Government and whether it will reflect our own experience of inflation over such a long period.
My Response:
This is a crucial question. Fortunately we have 20 years of our own expense history to compare with CPI data. When I asked my wife what her perception was of our standard of living today versus 20 years ago, her feeling was that it had increased a little. That's my feeling too. When I inflated our expenses in 1994 to 2014 dollars using the CPI-U, our current expenses are about 1% lower than 20 years ago. If I use the estimated chained CPI-U (0.25%/yr lower), our current expenses are about 3% higher today in real terms. That 3% increase is consistent with our feeling that we're living a little better/spending a little more than 20 years ago. So I'm comfortable that the chained CPI-U reasonably matches our experience of inflation.
Addendum: That said, when matching liabilities and income it’s important to think through the future inflation issue and try to account for any significant income or expense categories that might not track with inflation. So I have put this issue under a microscope below.
I’ve already determined from the expense history analysis that the CPI has tracked our standard of living reasonably well, so I’m comfortable starting from the default assumption that our expenses will continue to move with the CPI measure. From that point, I consider each expense category to see if there might be a reason to assume a different future growth rate as we grow older. Below is a summary of our major categories of expenses and income, how I think they will change in the future versus CPI inflation, and whether I've explicitly forecast for that category or just assumed inflation. The thinking is to adjust our forecast where the negative impact could be significant or where the expense is very lumpy, and to not adjust for those expenses that I think might decline, mainly because I don’t know exactly when those decreases would kick in. It's a conservative approach, but as long as we can afford it, I’d rather be looking for ways to invest excess ladder cash than be looking for ways to get the cash when the ladder income is short. Of course you can always adjust the ladder (at a cost) or find ways to get the cash so I don’t want to overstate how exact your forecast needs to be. But the better the forecast, the lower the adjustment costs. All income streams need to be considered in this process as well, since they directly affect the required funding from the ladder. For the estimates of taxes, social security and medicare premiums I used ESPlanner.
There doesn’t seem to be a lot of research on how expenses change as we age but here are two relevant links:
http://theretirementcafe.blogspot.com/2013/12/does-retirement-get-cheaper-as-we-age.html
http://wpfau.blogspot.com/2011/08/reality-retirement-planning-new.html
I couldn't really finish reading this because it just ends up sounding like there just isn't any real dilemma here at all because they have so much money to work with. Everything is already covered, LTC, pensions, so they could do a number of things and be just fine. TIPs is just fine because they seem to have such a low tolerance for any risk whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteI presume you have checked this, but you do need to be sure that you won't run into trouble with taking less than the RMDs for your IRA from your TIPS ladder. Note also that the younger member of the couple will be only 85 in 25 years, and so may need 10 years or so of additional income. Depending on how the Roth IRA does, you might want to consider an annuity purchase or some longevity insurance at some point. It would be a shame if the Roth did well for 22 years, then hit a major down market 23-25 years out. Alternatively, to fit with the rest of your approach, I guess you could use the Roth to extend the ladder at some point.
ReplyDeleteYou plan to "hold bonds to maturity". Should your need for a significant increase in ready cash occur in the future would you be able to accommodate it? I ask because, what with the aging "baby boomer" demographic bubble steadily rising, the need for LTC health care expense coverage will become acute, with expenses dramatically rising over time. Many insurance companies have (or eventually will) increase their LTC premiums. Be prepared to pay the increase of lose the LTC insurance altogether. In fact, a number of insurance companies have dropped this coverage as it's not proving profitable enough for them to continue to provide. You mention that your LTC premiums have remained constant for the last 14 years. This was in your younger years. Don't expect this trend to continue indefinitely. As for me, I don't plan to take out LTC insurance but rather to self insure using my diversified investment growth. Just something to consider relating to possible future cash flow needs.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with this concern. There has got to be liquid assets held outside of the ladder. I wrote this at the Bogleheads discussion:
DeleteI do agree with dbr about making sure you have sufficient funds to deal with contingencies like unexpected expenses over those 25 years. A spending shock which requires selling additional parts of the ladder at a time of higher interest rates could have big ramifications for the plan's success. I assume the TIPS ladder covers the overall lifestyle goal of essential and discretionary expenses. But note how Modern Retirement Theory (www.modernretirementtheory.com), which is a safety-first approach like this, emphasizes having a contingency fund in place before dealing with discretionary expenses.
This looks like a solid plan to me. I am also very conservative, in that I don't feel like additional money beyond my current standard of living will "buy" me much happiness. I would feel comfortable with this approach, particularly if:
ReplyDelete1) The Roth IRA is large enough to cover a few unexpected, large cost impacts, and
2) The projected expenses are comfortable, and (if necessary) you could comfortably trim those expenses if, say, LTC premiums/health care costs increase faster than you think.
In addition, I would say there is never a 100% safe plan, but this is very safe (IMO). You have to weigh the probabilities of items which might undermine this scenario (seem fairly unlikely), vs the probabilities of market action which leaves you short of funds (not necessarily likely if properly diversified, but probably more likely than this approach falling short.
I guess my only concern with this approach would be "what do you do if medicare is means tested, or significantly restricted?"
I may have a completely different perspective than other commenters, as an adviser having been retired myself for almost a decade, and it is this. Financial advisers and economists alike should spend more time listening to us "old guys" and hearing how we feel than telling us how they think we should feel.
ReplyDeleteIt's one thing to experience how it feels to see 15% or 20% of your wealth disappear into the black hole of a bear market when you are working, and an entirely different thing to see that standard of living that you may be losing forever disappear before your very eyes.
Excellent post, Grinder12.
And an excellent comment Dirk! It is quite annoying to have tenured professors and advisors with little experience tout portfolios with, for example, a 5% failure rate so enthusiastically. That is 1 chance in 20 to put it differently, and to me, far more effectively. Then the investor is labeled "irrationally risk averse" if he pales at this possibility, or even the now seemingly frequent -40% bear markets in equities. Fred
DeleteWade, this is great. It formalizes some of my own investment thinking. Your research and blog is invaluable. And also thanks to Grinder12 for the write-up.
ReplyDeleteAdvisor Caution #9:
ReplyDeleteEven if the TIPS are held in an IRA, both the real AND inflationary gains will be taxable upon withdrawal for spending, almost certainly reducing the 0.8% pre-tax real return to a negative after-tax real annual return which, in the event of significant inflation rates, could be VERY negative. Furthermore, although the investment in the IRA was in TIPS, upon withdrawal the growth, both real and inflationary will be taxed at ordinary income rates for both federal and state purposes. The response to caution 6 did not address the eventual taxation upon withdrawal.
I'm having trouble visualizing how this concern would play out. Yes, you also have to pay taxes on gains due to inflation. But over time, tax brackets grow by inflation as well. Wouldn't tax bracket growth mostly counteract this concern?
DeleteIndexing the COST BASIS would eliminate the problem, but indexing the TAX BRACKET will not. The writer is likely in the 25% Federal bracket and most people pay state taxes (which apply to IRA distributions even if the source income is TIPS), so 30% is typical (higher in states like California).
DeleteTo keep it simple, let's round the expected real return to 1% and make the inflation rate 10%. The total nominal return will be 11.1%. Indexing will prevent this inflation from moving the taxpayer into a higher bracket, but they will still be paying at the 30% rate on all nominal returns. So taxes will grab 3.33% and reduce the after-tax return to 7.77%, far below the inflation rate. The net real loss is slightly in excess of 2%.
Even modest inflation of 3%, which most people will agree is highly plausible, combined with the 0.8% real return the writer correctly estimated for pre-tax real returns at the moment, will completely wipe out the entire return for the taxpayer and leave them at a net real loss.
There is a modest reduction in the effective tax bracket for longer term TIPS because the taxation is all at once in the year of distribution rather than annually. The impact is comparable to an immediate Roth conversion of the entire IRA at a 30% rate, followed by zero taxation afterwards on the annual return (currently 0.8%).
Now, it is very possible that some retirees could sustain a one-time 30% permanent loss and then live comfortably on a 0.8% tax-free real return on the 70% balance of assets that are left. Of course, under such a circumstance it is hard to see why they couldn't comfortably handle the fluctuations of a global equity portfolio.
I don't want to argue with the guest writer: he can do what he wants with his own money. But I could never in good conscience expose a client of mine to the risk of major inflation which, after taxes, even devastates inflation-protected securities. 75% Global Equities, 25% TIPS? Sure. But the reverse is not as safe as he wants to believe.
Less Antman, Your comments are an excellent reminder that NO retirement plan can be considered complete unless it incorporates an accurate taxes-owed calculation. Thanks for taking the time to fully explain your thinking.
DeleteLess,
DeleteYes, thank you. I see what you are saying. The tax implications of high inflation on TIPS are much stronger than I imagined. This is an important comment! Thanks
Wade,
DeleteThank you for starting the thread at http://wpfau.blogspot.com/2014/02/taxation-of-tips-ladder.html to discuss my comment. I'm pleased to concede that I was wrong on the impact of high inflation in a traditional IRA, and failed to notice that my own last explanation demonstrated that. The impact of a 30% tax rate on distributions IS equivalent to a one-time tax on the initial traditional IRA balance of 30% followed by a real tax-free return of 0.8% thereafter. Notice no reference in this last statement to inflation, because it doesn't matter after the initial 30% reduction is taken into account.
I don't want this concession to imply that I have no objections to the writer's plan, only that my thoughts on high inflation missed the mark. There are many worst-case scenarios he is ignoring while focusing entirely on the possibility of an unprecedented bear market in global equities (which have never in recorded history gone 7 years without making a new all-time high). Default risk, longevity risk, expenditure risk, and even the risk of 3% returns on equities (which would require a higher, not lower, equity allocation relative to a 4% expectation) all have an historical plausibility his chosen fear lacks. And the writer's portfolio increases his and his wife's exposure to all of them.
But we can remove inflation risk.
seems a reasonable plan if you can afford it
ReplyDeletewith current low coupon rates for TIPS I wonder whether most people would be better off using other fairly safe income streams such as CDs, I Bonds, Stable Value funds for funding the first 7 years and then start a TIPS ladder starting in 7 or so years.
Dr Pfau had a recent article showing that the value of TIPS beyond about 20 years levels off. Maybe a 25 year TIPs ladder is not necessary: do just 20 years and then either purchase a Longevity annuity insurance and /or consider doing a partial inflation adjusted SPIA annuity in 10 years. Just some suggestion to consider, but I think it is fine as is, as long as you are confident about Long term care costs.
Derek,
DeleteThat's a valid point. I did find that after about 20 years of TIPS, the additional downside protection provided by even more TIPS is quite slim.
I followed this on Bogleheads and was amazed that all the advice was being offered without knowing the facts.
ReplyDeleteThe relevant and material facts known to Grinder and his financial advisor are the amount of retirement income and net worth of Grinder. All were willing to respond without these facts, and most concurred with Grinder.
If Grinder had a net worth of 10m, wouldn't an advisor recommend rethinking his safety first approach? 20m? Digging a bit into the facts given us by Grinder it can be seen that his income and net worth are relatively high.
People seem to love to debate the abstract without knowing the relevant/material facts. If the facts were known, my guess is that the advisor would score more points, despite Grinder's excellent portrayal.
John, with regard to what the spending goals are relative to wealth, I think you're getting at the point that if the withdrawal rate only needs to be 1%, for example, then there is very little chance that 100% stocks won't work. But at the same time, if one feels more comfortable having the TIPS ladder, it would also be the case that not as much wealth will need to be devoted to TIPS. There will still be plenty of left over for other purposes.
DeleteMy point is that retirement income and net worth are clearly relevant and material to such a decision; ignoring this when giving advice would seem irresponsible. To use an extreme example, assume that net needs after SS, pensions, etc. are 100k and the individual has 10m or 20m net worth to cover this. The individual of course has a right to cover the 100k with a TIPS ladder, but would anyone not think he was nuts to do so? The individual can do what he pleases, and we can debate the abstract if we wish, but the TIPS ladder would be absurd in such a case.
DeleteI'm sure Grinder's case is not this extreme, but I'd be willing to bet if the income and net worth facts (plus the degree of conservatism in evaluating needs) were known, there would be a lot of responders to this blog and the Bogleheads' thread that would change their tune and agree with Grinder's advisor.
Context can be everything. If we had anything near $10m I wouldn’t be spending so much time on this or having so much trouble sleeping. Things have come to a head for various reasons and it feels like one of the most important financial decisions we’ve ever made. The plan is not bulletproof and I’m still trying to minimize the simulation failures. But I have come to understand that we’re better off financially than I had thought and certainly feel fortunate.
DeleteI feel bad for the hits the advisor took on the forum and apologized to them for not running the post past them first. In retrospect I should have paraphrased the issues a lot more rather than quoting an email that was not intended for world scrutiny. Lesson learned. I’m glad they didn’t fire ME.
I have been a lousy, but somewhat lucky investor. I had not even heard of Bogleheads or Wade Pfau’s blog until last week, and joined the forum last Friday as part of an effort to reach out for advice. I was hoping to see a couple responses and instead got bowled over. The responses here and on Bogleheads have been invaluable and much appreciated. What great resources for people trying to think about this stuff.
Grinder, you only have yourself to blame :). If your posts hadn't been so well-reasoned and well-written you would not have received so many comments (many of which are also excellent).
Delete"When I run probabilistic scenarios, I'm not even comfortable with a 95% portfolio survival probability. If I can afford to increase that survival probability further, I will."
As a retiree myself, I can understand your concern with the retirement calculators (often MCS) and wide-ranging safe withdrawal rates. IMO these are all unreliable, and ultimately it should come down to obtaining a complete understanding of your specific facts (kudos to you in this regard) and a well-reasoned plan by you and your advisor. Good Luck.
I thank Grinder12 for sharing this plan and the thinking behind it. I think the plan looks solid. A few miscellaneous thoughts:
ReplyDelete1. For the medical + out-of-pocket premiums, the 2% real inflation rate may be a bit low. Folks tend to use more medical services as they age, so at a minimum, out-of-pocket costs will probably increase due to their growing utilization of medical services. In my plan, I add 1% to the presumed medical expense inflation rate to account for this. And I've also observed that some things like eyeglasses, vision exams, and OTC medications have been increasing in cost roughly along with the CPI, not at the faster clip that's often assumed for medical items.
2. I'm wondering if Grinder12 will find a desire at some point in the next 25 years to extend the bond ladder a few additional years (in line with an Asset Dedication strategy). After all, the equity portion might grow quite large by then, but the risk of a large (say, 50%) decline then that can't be recovered from in the remaining lifespan is not insignificant. I wonder if Grinder12 needs to invest in equities at all to achieve retirement spending and funding goals.
3. At current low interest rate levels, long-term TIPS prices are VERY sensitive to interest rate changes. If medium and long-term interest rates increase significantly over the next few years, the mark-to-market value of the TIPS in the IRA will be significantly diminished. This could force unplanned-for liquidations in the TIPS portfolio to meet the IRS' minimum distribution requirements. (This could be avoided if some of the traditional IRA holdings are converted to a Roth, but I don't know if it would be advantageous in Grinder12's tax situation).
4. If Grinder12 is going to create a 25-year TIPS ladder, it might be better to avoid buying all of the needed bonds at one time. Spreading the purchases over some period of time, even a year or so, can help to perhaps capture better (i.e., lower) bond prices if rates rise as the economy continues to improve. Spreading out the purchases a bit can also help avoid the buyer's remorse that often accompanies large one-time purchases.
For point #3, the RMD's might exceed Grinder's planned withdrawal levels if the IRA increases in value more than expected (due to declining interest rates or the bonds sliding down the yield curve as they approach maturity). So I didn't state things correctly. The larger issue -- that changes in the shape of the TIPs yield curve over time can possibly force premature bond sales due to RMD's -- remains.
DeleteFor a conservative investor I think this is a well thought out plan. Yes there are some issue like rising cost of LTC insurance and unexpected expenses but they do have a modest amount in a ROTH which can be withdrawn to handle emergency plans.
ReplyDeleteMy biggest issue is the implementation plan for what happens in 25 years when the tips ladder runs out. You are 85/95 and instead of cashing in your TIPs bonds to spend like you have been doing for the last 25 year, you are suddenly thrust into a world of trying to figure out what to with a significant chunk of money (25 years @4%=40% of existing asset) all invested in equities. That you need to live on. I think you'd be prime target for some variable annuity salesman at that age. Sadly there is a high probability that you won't be nearly as mental sharp as you are today.
I think you might want to consider a deferred annuity to replace some of the income at age 85.
I would be hesitant to go with such a large amount of TIPS. They weren't around during the last high inflationary period. Governments will do anything to survive and if that means cheating on the CPI calculation its a given. With TIPS you at at their mercy. Just look at Argentina where true inflation is 25-30% but the govt acknowledges only 10%. Given how corrupt the US govt has become I would not want such a large part of my net worth dependent on them living up to their commitments
ReplyDeleteBut Grinder has 20 years of data saying that in his experience the CPI is an accurate reflection of his spending. Thanks to the internet it is hell of a lot more difficult for the government to cheat with statistic now than any time in human history. Google has been automatically collecting pricing information for the last few years. If Google say inflation it is 4% and the US government says it is 2%, then it is time to be concerned. But we aren't there yet.
DeleteIt would be good to keep in mind that TIPS are auctioned; all Treasuries have been since 1951. The Treasury may set the coupon but the purchasers set the yield by bidding. If there were some large discrepancy regarding inflation I would expect the bidders to bid down the price (and up the yield) of future TIPS making government efforts self defeating. The most likely victims of inflation- rigging would be Social Security recipients sadly. Fred
DeleteIf Grinder is this conservative, has he considered offloading (all or a portion) of his risk to an insurance company via an inflation indexed annuity? Ex: 50% TIPS and 50% Annuity.
ReplyDeleteRight. Some large, well-known insurance company, perhaps the largest in the world.
DeleteThe annuity offered through a highly respected mutual fund company- Vanguard. I am speaking of AIG of course and fortunately I didn't entrust anything significant (to me) to them. Sure, the taxpayers bailed them (me) out but what about next time? Fred
I completely agree with your all points. But will it be able to make impact on retired persons according to their plan? It would have been taken care earlier by the government. With all these advisory, retirement planning will be of safety for lifetime. It is always recommended to consult retirement planner
ReplyDelete